Ben Child writes in The Guardian about the "challenge" ahead for The Dark Knight Rises:
"Christopher Nolan finds himself in an unusual position as we prepare for the arrival of The Dark Knight Rises in cinemas on 20 July. For the first time since the release of the film's predecessor four years ago, his Batman saga is not the biggest superhero story in town. That honour, at least for the time being, rests with Avengers Assemble, currently getting even better reviews than The Dark Knight, and showing signs that it will perform more strongly at the box office. Meanwhile, The Amazing Spider-Man waits in the wings: the unknown quantity that just might take out both its rivals (provided the shonky CGI Lizard we've seen in preview footage doesn't mess everything up for director Marc Webb)." Read the full article here.
Ever since Iron Man, we have all been desperate to see how this entire set-up of comic book characters would pan out. The huge hype behind Avengers Assemble shows that, as the first serious Summer release, it is now the the 'bar' which others are compared to. But there is a huge difference Ben Childs fails to realise when comparing The Dark Knight Rises against The Amazing Spider-Man and The Avengers.
The vast majority of comic book fans will be well aware of some film politics behind the releases. The Amazing Spider-Man is a reboot due to escalating costs of the Sam Raimi / Tobey Maguire franchise and an awareness of how Maguire was only getting older... and clearly, the big bucks are rooted in the teenage market (See Twilight, The Hunger Games, et al). Mid-thirties Spider-Man (in fact, Maguire would be a 40-year-old Spider-Man in 2015) was hardly the best sell when true 'older men' heroes - Batman, Superman, etc. - are due for release. People like the youth, teenage fun and coming-of-age elements to Spider-Man - not simply the fact that he climbs on walls. Indeed, the writing was on the wall and Sony would have been foolish to not reboot the franchise if they wanted more longevity... and more money.
Regarding The Avengers, it has been planned for a long time. If Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger had failed, it would still have gone ahead on the basis of Iron Man alone. This is Marvel's long-term investment and they have perfectly planned how to execute the series to ensure consistent, successful box-office figures. Hell, they screwed up the whole Iron Man 2 story by shoving in plot points only relevant to a film due two years later.
They fired / forced out talent including Terrence Howard, Edward Norton and director Jon Favreau because they were not part of The Avengers plan. Howard I believe wanted more money, but Norton and Favreau clearly had their own intentions regarding characters and plot, and Marvel Studios (from a financial stance) understandably put into perspective the bigger picture. No actor or director will jeopardise the huge plan the Marvel team have put in place. Consistent actors, they knew, fans wouldn't care about. The only actor who may have control over anything here is Robert Downey Jr., and now he has been stapled to at least Iron Man 3 and The Avengers 2, producer Kevin Feige has happily stated "I hope Downey makes a lot of movies for us as Stark. If and when he doesn’t, and I’m still here making these movies, we don’t take him to Afghanistan and have him wounded again. I think we James Bond it.". So, maybe Downey is not safe. The Avengers was, and always will be, a producer's dream - and a property that is completely controlled by financially-motivated - and therefore "play-it-safe"- producers.
The Dark Knight Rises on the other hand is an example of a franchise that was born out of creativity, passion and a personal desire to deliver a Batman story with depth. Batman Begins made less money on its opening weekend than Batman Forever, and worldwide it made less than Tim Burton's original Batman back in 1989! Nolan made a film which he had his own vision for and he delivered - ignoring any unexpected losses a studio would deem unacceptable. They trusted him and knew that, ultimately, Batman Begins made enough money to warrant a sequel. The Dark Knight was successful and satisfying due to the solid foundations created three years prior. In addition to this, it had an intelligent - even profound - story with inspired casting (I think we all recall the "huh?" when Heath Ledger was cast as The Joker. How wrong we were). The Dark Knight Rises is the final installment. There is no 'Justice-League' initiative. There is no 'list of baddies' for Christian Bale's Batman to work his way through. Chris Nolan hasn't got Penguin planned for 'The Dark Knight Rises Again' or a Riddler re-emerging in 'Batman V'. Creatively and sensibly, Nolan is closing the lid on this Batman story.
What The Dark Knight Rises has over The Avengers and The Amazing Spider-Man is credibility first and finance second. Christopher Nolan proved with Inception - and indeed all his films so far - that he is no flash-in-the-pan. He is an artist with a vision which Warner Bros. trusts. Joss Whedon and Marc Webb may satisfy the fans, but if they challenged producers, they would be pulled off and another director would replace them. Believe me, The Avengers is a success because Marvel planned it out that way - the question is whether they can continue this success now that we have seen how easy all of this was. What isn't easy is sticking to your vision and building a daring and challenging idea based on an established property like Batman. Hats off to Chris Nolan, but also to Warner Bros. for trusting him.
Simon Columb
The Avengers isn't better reviewed than The Dark Knight. Check Metacritic and RottenTomatoes.
ReplyDeleteThe Avengers Metacritic score is 75 at this moment, so there is chance it might go up but not by much. Rotten Tomatoes gives it 96% fresh rating but with an 8.1/10 average score. There have been only 62 reviews so far and 2 are rotten.
In contrast with The Dark Knight it holds a 82/100 rating on Metacritic. On Rotten Tomatoes it has a 94% fresh rating with 283 reviews with an average score of 8.4/10. Big difference on how many reviews there are yet it is still more critically acclaimed than The Avengers.
Ben Child's needs to get his facts straight
ReplyDeleteMaybe the stats were slightly different when he originally wrote the article. Ben Childs linked to rotten tomatoes originally so assume it has changed slightly.
ReplyDeleteI was about to point out the same thing. The Dark Knight has better reviews by a fairly clear margin. Also, the two don't seem too comparable seeing as many of the top critics especially are pointing out there isn't much under the hood thematically. This is not to criticize the film. It is being hailed as great escapist fun of the highest order. The Dark Knight transcended that. I also must agree that no one ever looks at the average rating on RT which is the key here. The Dark Knight currently has about 200 more reviews with a higher average. Look at Iron Man 2 for example. I thought personally that a 74% was disgustingly high for the disappointment that was the sequel. Well its average rating is not nearly as rosy and its metacritic is even worse. A 3/5 is not a ringing endorsement for a film but is on most occasions counted as a positive review. This is an interesting article but this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. The same thing happened the summer of The Dark Knight when Iron Man opened the season to higher marks than expected. All one must do is apply a little foresight...
ReplyDeleteYou can't compare the Avengers to The Dark Knight
ReplyDeleteIn Nolan We Trust
ReplyDeleteTo the person that stated that The Avengers will be a 9 compared to The Dark Knight Rises (in which the poster gave a 7) has forgot one other thing: Christopher Nolan. All of his movies have been well received, and the last movie he did, Inception, did not have a single super hero in it, or have Heath Ledger in it (sarcasm), was written and directed by Nolan himself, and made nearly $300 million in the U.S., and over $800 million worldwide overall in 2010.
ReplyDeleteNolan knows how to write a movie, how to direct a movie, and how to make/produce a movie. No disrespect to Joss Whedon, who is talented, but it's like comparing a nice Ford to a Rolls Royce in terms of writing/producing and directing.
Nolan's films tend to have a long shelf life, being that you can watch them over and over and catch stuff you missed the last time you watched any of his films. I think that Whedon is getting there also, and will get there, but I seriously think that Nolan's Batman will be more memorable than Whedon's Avengers when all is said and done.
It ultimately may be north or south of Dark Knight's ratings, but it's going to be pretty darn close. Too many critics have seen it for the scores to go that far down, and some notoriously fickle critics who go against the grain to go against the grain have already given it good reviews.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, though, it doesn't really matter where it stands. Dark Knight was a great movies and, by all indications, Avengers will be, too. Which one is better is entirely subjective and merely fodder for fanboys and girls alike.
I personally don't think you can compare the Avengers and Dark Knight for one reason - one is a comic book movie and the other one isn't.
ReplyDeleteDark Knight is a very good film with some superb performances that is let down by it's third act which falls a little flat compared to the first two. I still don't buy Bale as Batman and his voice is far too over the top to be taken seriously. Ledger as The Joker was a stroke of genius and his performance will live on longer than any of us posting in this thread. However, because the film is so grounded in reality and the themes of the movie are based around real life, you could take the Batman methos out of this film and it would have been the same movie - there is nothing in the film that inherently makes it a comic book movie. Nolan set out to make an amazing movie with a great story with first class acting (like any good director should) but did not set out to make a comic book movie.
Whereas The Avengers on the other hand is comic book movie through and through. The characters feel like they are taken from comic books, the way the film is presented feels like a comic book and even the way that it is edited feels like reading panels of a comic book and turning the page. Whedon did this because a) it's a comic book movie and b) he has always had a comic book style mentality when it comes to film-making.
Nolan does not come across as a comic book fan - he comes across as a great film-maker. And as such, he made a great film and not a great comic book film. Which is why I feel you can't compare the two.
Nice article, total agreement.
ReplyDeleteJust because there isn't a Norse god or a guy allergic to kryptonite in it, it doesn't mean it isn't a comic book movie. I get that Nolan's Batman universe is a tad bit more grounded in reality than most other 'comic book movies,' but it's still firmly in a comic book (cape-crusading, even) universe.
ReplyDeleteCharacters like Catwoman, the Joker, and, yes, Batman, don't exist outside of comic book universes. There are no caped crusaders in real life. There are certainly no Ra's Alguls.
With each movie, Nolan has allowed himself to go further into the comic book universe of it all, starting out with a grounded, reality-like premise, and moving into something decidedly comic-like, adding gadgets and facing increasingly comic-like villains. That in great part mirrors Bruce Wayne's character transcending (or should I say descending?) into Batman, all starting with Bruce's trip down the rabbit hole, when he first met Ra's in that prison camp.
My guess is Dark Knight Rises, with characters like Bane and even more "Bat Toys," will fully cement the trilogy as a comic book trilogy, just with a more serious bent than previous entries to the genre. By the end of the movie, Bruce Wayne will be firmly established as Batman and fully living in a comic book universe, even if there still won't be mutations and aliens (that we've seen).
Those don't matter. The Cape does.
While I appreciate how much Nolan has gone to ground his movies in
something resembling reality, keeping out things like magic, aliens and
mutations, I think suggesting these movies aren't "comic book movies" is
something of a cop-out by people who don't want to admit how great comic
book movies can be as movies and not just comics.
They've been great movies and they've been great comic book movies; the two
are not mutually exclusive, much as people have been trained to think for
generations. Let's not try to revise the history of what Batman is because
we're afraid of being called a geek, or realizing that we are actually one,
since we like a fully-realized comic book film in the super-hero vein.
I dunno about the other films but your summary of the Dark Knight Rises' plot just makes me laugh. Rush story? Cutting cost? The Dark Knight Rises will no doubt have a superb storyline and I will be surprise if the Avengers or the Amazing Spiderman have half the quality of story present in the Dark Knight Rises. The Dark Knight Rises may be a comic book movie dealing with characters from the comics but its story revolves around today's society and relates to how we feel about it. The economic crisis at hand, our perception of terrorism, the growing class warfare, corruption in our societies... and not to mention literature themes such as redemption, pain, sacrifice, and many more. These kinds of things that are presented in the Batman films is what elevates it higher than being just a comic book movie. It transcend that and I cannot wait to see it.
ReplyDeleteWrong, i was summarising The Dark Knight (Not the stupidly named sequel which chooses to basically copy it.
ReplyDeleteThe Dark Knight was rushed, that was obvious from the appearance of Two-face who was killed off almost immediately after he became the true villain. Rachel Dawes who was basically written out and killed quickly after what felt like a cameo appearance.
The rating is based on how many people out of 10 will likely view the film. Based on the theory that The Avengers has had a longer set-up (Spanning over Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, Thor and Captain America) and is targetted at kids, it appeals to a larger group.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are arguing for here is the quality of the film but that isnt what i was on about. I was on about the marketting aspect. The Dark Knight rises has had so little publicity other than bad comments about not understanding Bane or Gordon (in the hospital) and rumours about Talia al Ghul and Robin and the 'bat breaker' storyline following from Knightfall.
Nolan was merely lucky with Inception that the general population didnt understand the ending which led to lots of people rewatching and writing reviews about the ending. The entire film was held together by a few small charecter plotlines. What little i can remember from the film is the main charecter subplot relationship and the 'targets' relationship with his father.
Maybe your right and Nolan`s Batman series will be the most memorable, but right now i highly doubt it will be the most popular, given the immense lack of marketting despite the films release being in two months.
I am in almost total agreement with the article. Although I will say I believe choosing Joss Whedon to helm The Avengers was more of a creative choice than given credit for. I have been a fan of his work for a long time, and I think he was an excellent choice; I mean he writes for The Avengers comics. What Sony has done with The Amazing Spider-Man is the most greedy. I mean it's only been five years since Spider-Man 3, and ten since the original, and they are already rebooting it.
ReplyDeleteBut I am in complete agreement about Warner Bros. and what they have allowed Christopher Nolan to do with the Batman franchise. They've given him over half a million dollars for his films, and he's delivered with over twice the amount earned. And The Dark Knight Rises hasn't even been released yet. Also, going by what I have read and totally agree with in another article, The Avengers is going to be great; but it has certain 'rules' it must follow, like all the main characters surviving, Loki being defeated temporarily to name a couple. The Dark Knight Rises is the end of the trilogy; it has no rules, or very little at least. Bruce Wayne himself is no safer than Bane. I would actually be surprised if Alfred lives to see the credits roll.
Overall, I hope The Amazing Spider-Man fails, and The Avengers and Dark Knight Rises make a s**t ton of money, because those studios deserve it with the effort put in. But in the battle of The Avengers vs. The Dark Knight Rises, my money is going to the latter. The Avengers will be a great movie, but more of a popcorn movie. The Dark Knight Rises has a much darker tone and has the opportunity to raise the bar set by The Dark Knight as not only the best superhero movie ever, but in my opinion, one of the greatest movies ever made. I think it will. In Nolan I trust.
Some great discussion in this thread.
ReplyDeleteRon - My sentiments exactly. The Avengers is a popcorn movie, and a fantastic one at that, but it's all about having fun, whereas the Nolan Batman movies offer much more than that. The Dark Knight Rises will be a great film... and like you say, no rules.
As for Luke and Ryan's comments, although I would class them both as comic book movies, I still think it's hard to compare them as they're so different in style and tone. I'd say The Dark Knight is the better film, but The Avengers is a great adaptation in that it really evokes the feel of the comic book source material. I don't think any other movie, TDK included, has managed to pull that off quite so well (Sin City, maybe).
And I feel sorry for The Amazing Spider-Man. I sense it's on a hiding to nothing this year!
Er, Nolan only made the Batman movies to get enough clout and big movie experience to be allowed to make "Inception," his true passion project.
ReplyDeleteIf thats the only reason, why has he made The Dark Knight Rises?
ReplyDeleteBecause The Dark Knight generated a large amount of revenue due to many people watching the film due to Heath Ledgers performance and the misconception that it was his last film. His actual last performance being in "the imaginarium of doctor parnassus"
ReplyDeleteThe Dark Knight Rises has been hyped beyond belief. Nolan even said he wants the film to be his last Batman. They dont want to continue it. So he`s upping the stakes by introducing a (logic defying) flying bat vehicle, Bane (in order to kill the Batman) and is using elements from the Knightfall storyline in order to win the fans over.
I agree about the Amazing Spider-man, its a reboot, its way too soon, it should fail.
ReplyDeleteThe Avengers is a 'popcorn movie' but it has a great group of actors and even though their are rules, they still push the boundaries. One character`s death and the way that Nick Fury handles it is certainly in essence of his darker traits.
The Dark Knight Rises has NO TONE! Your in an illusion if you think it has. Sure, Batman is on the run and now being the Anti-Hero. But whats the point in that if the director has basically thrown his own rules out the window. What happened to realism when we have Cat Woman who can dodge a bullet, the flying-bat-thing that is likely to be left unexplained and a pointless romantic subplot between Selena and Bruce which will likely just end in them teaming up to fight Bane until either one of them is killed.
No rules means that their is no high expectations for this from me. TDKR could simply have Batman die, Afred die, Cat Woman die, Miranda Tate become Talia al Ghul, John Blake be revealed as Robyn/Nightwing who takes up the mantle of hero after Batman, Bane could explode all of Gotham... it wouldnt mean anything when the reboot is currently confirmed for 2015 and will likely include Robin.
I honestly couldn't have said it better myself Getanaccount. Christopher Nolan is an exceptionally talented writer and director, and like you said, proved with Inception that he doesn't need superhero's to make a great film.
ReplyDeleteAnd it really bugs me that people say The Dark Knight made most of its money because it was Ledger's last completed roll. Sure that might have contributed, but the movie was number one at the box office for a month, meaning it was getting a lot of return business. People did not go see it twice or three times just because the actor had died, they went to see it because he had such an epic performance as The Joker, which added to the greatness of the film.
I have nothing against The Avengers, I actually bought five midnight showing tickets for me and four friends. I'm beyond excited. But I'm ecstatic for The Dark Knight Rises, and I'll be at my IMAX theater at 9 PM on July 19th, spending $15 a ticket and most likely dressed as Bane for this one. I mean it's only the sequel to my favorite movie of all time. =]
I'm going to have to disagree here, respectfully of course. I think The Dark Knight Rises has a much more serious tone than The Avengers. Sure, more advanced technology comes up and things may look unrealistic, but we're shown these out of context. I'll admit when I saw the 'flying-bat-thing' at first I was not all that happy about it, but then again I think he went about upgrading his previous technology in the most realistic way he could for this, I mean it is eight years later anyway.
ReplyDeleteAnd as far as the reboot and all that goes, I'm not really that concerned about who's in it, or anything like that. I might watch them when they come out, but Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy is what I will always identify Batman with. Each have their own separate tone, Batman Begins was dirty/grimy, The Dark Knight was dark, and could be associated with bruises (blue flames in the beginning), and The Dark Knight Rises is breaking through the ice; things were okay but it was only a matter of time before the peace breaks and a dark force threatens Gotham again. And for me it's a foreboding theme that is getting me excited.
And technically we're all having an illusion about these three movies, also called a belief. There is no objective truth about any one of them; only our subjective feelings. So you can dismiss everyone's beliefs that are not the same as yours as their 'illusions', but really your illusion is no better than anyone else's.
Great article, although I want to discuss this:
ReplyDelete"They fired / forced out talent including Terrence Howard, Edward Norton and director Jon Favreau because they were not part of The Avengers plan."
This isn't really correct. According to information I have read elsewhere, Howard was pushed out not just for wanting more money, but because he was difficult for Favreau to work with.
Ed Norton was replaced because, again, he was difficult to work with, wanting to put his own creative input into the fil, which is awkward considering how producer driven these are.
Also, Favreau is a producer on the new film. So he wasn't forced out. The only reason I can think of that he wasn't given the job as director of the Avengers was because, to be honest, he is not great at directing action. Whedon is much better at creating engaging action scenes.
I wouldn't disagree with Whedon at all. But Favreau isn't directing Iron Man 3 ... and you can see the producers hands all over Iron Man 2: How can we squeeze ANOTHER character in...?
ReplyDeleteTerrence Howard apparently was playing the i-want-more you-meet-me-halfway 'card' which actors often do but, instead, they just said 'too high' and bailed. Howard may have been a problem for Favreau so thats fair enough I guess.
Ed Norton on the other hand, was trying to shape a franchise he was effectively the face of and thats fair enough. You say its producer-driven, and you're right, but is that a good thing? I think it should be director-driven because when the chips are down, the directors credability is on the line whereas the producers, if a film fails, move on. They can still garner the clout and finance another project.
The main thing is the film is producer-driven and money will always be the bottom line - anything edgy, risky or challenging will always be vetoed out because it may affect ticket sales. What I worry about is post-avengers, how the films will become so samey and bland, it won't be anything special. Franchises often last because each film - or set of film - brings to the table new talents, skills and interpretations. Martin Campbell rejuvenating 007 with GOLDENEYE and CASINO ROYALE. Sam Mendes said in Empire mag this month that the only crew he HAD to have for SKYFALL, were Judi Dench and Daniel Craig. Everyone else is changeable. Roger Deakins and Thomas Newman now making 007 - whilst SFX crew are kept from the previous bond films, because they are good at it. They should have worked WITH Ed Norton to meet halfway, rather than get rid.
Though, if I could change time, I wish Ruffalo was Hulk back in 2008 ...
"The main thing is the film is producer-driven and money will always be the bottom line - anything edgy, risky or challenging will always be vetoed out because it may affect ticket sales. What I worry about is post-avengers, how the films will become so samey and bland, it won't be anything special."
ReplyDeleteSame I'm also worried about this. We only know that there are more sequels for the same characters on the way, I'd much rather hear about what new characters they are going to explore, especially now that the magic and space aliens of the Marvel Universe have been introduced. The only current hint at the moment is the Edgar Wright Ant-man movie, which could be a straight-up comedy or animated movie, but that thing has been in pre-pre-pre-production for years. I want to hear about Dr. Strange or Black Panther or one of the space heroes, which would shake up the formula of these movies.
maybe complete tonal shifts? films whereby it is hard to imagine IRON MAN in the same universe as the characters portrayed. And then, mix-the-two together! So far, so safe ...
ReplyDelete