As reported earlier today by the Batman of Flickering Myth, Gary Collinson, Warner Bros. are pushing forward with their Justice League movie that has been rumoured for quite some time now. In fact, back in 2007, WB came close to getting one out the door with the George Miller directed mo-cap Justice League: Mortal, which would have included a recasting of Batman despite Bale already sitting in the cowl.
Since then, Marvel and Paramount (and then Disney) put into a motion a 5-year plan for “phase one” of their Marvel Cinematic Universe. For those of you who have been living under a rock, this culminated in The Avengers, which is currently the 3rd highest grossing movie of all time. With such success from such a simple premise, it’s quite obvious why WB would want to capitalise on their available character roster. Unlike Marvel, WB own all of the DC characters so they don’t have to worry about not being able to use Aquaman because he’s stuck at Sony or not be able to have Brainiac as a villain because he’s part of the Superman lore at Fox. They have it all at their disposal.
My worry is though is that, if WB's plans are to be understood, they are starting with the Justice League rather than finishing with it. So, I thought I would put my fanboy cap on and plot out 5 things DC and Warner Bros. need to do for this film to be as successful (if not more) as The Avengers.
1. Plan out in advance.
Where Marvel succeeded with The Avengers was more to do with the plan itself rather than the movie. Even if the movie had sucked, it probably still would have made a boat load of cash (the Transformers movies are evidence of that). But because Marvel laid out a 5 year plan, everything slotted into place. Deals were made in advance and a schedule was put into place so by the time The Avengers was ready for release, the general public knew who all the characters were, how they link together and how each of them act.
DC has an interesting challenge here however, as it’s not like their characters are unknowns. Batman and Superman are among the most recognisable comic book characters in the world. Wonder Woman is such a pop culture icon that she doesn’t need much of an introduction and The Flash has been a popular character in Smallville as well as mentioned several times over and parodied on The Big Bang Theory. On top of that, those who watched Entourage will know who Aquaman is, as a movie of him was being made in their fictional world. And despite the fact the movie was an unmitigated disaster, Green Lantern is at least now a known name in the cinema world. So of the six characters they would most likely pick, they’ve all in some form or another had an introduction.
Having said all of that, while the names may sound familiar, the back stories have not been established, nor has an actor been solidified in that role (save a few exceptions). A Justice League movie would benefit from each of the 6 characters having their own solo movies to establish character, motives and most importantly, the actor who is playing them. Which brings us to point number two...
2. Don’t recast.
Now this all does depend on the ‘epic conclusion’ of Nolan’s Dark Knight franchise. Should the Bats be killed off (given Bale’s recent comments, I don’t see that happening), they would have to recast Batman and that would make sense. But Christian Bale has established himself as Batman. When people think of Batman now, they don’t think of Michael Keaton or George Clooney or Adam West (sadly), they think of Bale. He has brought so much to the character that has not only registered with the comic book community but with your Average Joes too. Throwing someone new into the mix, in a multi-character movie to boot, would put them at quite a disadvantage.
With Man of Steel hitting cinemas soon(ish), it would make sense to keep Henry Cavill in the red and blue. But if the movie is deemed a failure, would Cavill meet the same fate as Brandon Routh and be re-cast? I know a lot people who were confused as to why Edward Norton wasn’t playing Bruce Banner in The Avengers after playing The Hulk in 2008, but imagine what the film’s success might have been like had someone else played Iron Man or Captain America? Audiences went in knowing that Chris Hemsworth was Thor and that Samuel L. Jackson was Nick Fury so the battle of ‘can they pull off the part’ had already been won. They could just settle straight into the movie and not ask questions.
So, in an ideal world, Warner would keep Bale as Batman, Cavill as Superman and (sigh) Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern. Should they re-cast those parts, it could be detrimental to the film (especially re-casting Bats).
3. Establish a villain / group of villains & his / her / their motives.
One thing The Avengers doesn’t get enough credit for was that they didn’t just establish their main heroes but they also established a villain and his weapon. From watching Thor we knew how much of an evil son of a bitch Loki can be and by watching Captain America: The First Avenger, we saw how powerful the Tesseract is. So when we went into The Avengers, we knew Loki was dangerous but with this new tool he could be unstoppable – hence why a team had to be formed.
For the Justice League movie, their best bet in order to ‘one-up’ the competition would be to emulate the Adam West Batman movie. While that may sound laughable, what made that Batman movie so much fun to watch was that Batman was fighting against all of his adversaries at the same time. We as an audience need to be given a good enough reason for why this team is forming rather than just dollar bill signs in the WB execs' eyes. In this DC Universe, wouldn’t it be great to see Bane teaming up with Lex Luthor to take down the Justice League? It would certainly work out better than just picking one bad guy at random to take over the world and therefore having to spend half the movie establishing a) him and b) his motives.
This also means that they need to work harder to establish that all of these characters live within the same Universe. Mock Batman Forever and Batman & Robin all you want (please do, they are terrible), but they actually did try subtly to set up the fact that Gotham and Metropolis are in the same universe (“The circus must be half-way to Metropolis by now”, “This is why Superman works alone”). I’m not suggesting that these lines were put in by WB to cleverly set a Superman / Batman movie should one happen, but these simple touches subtly installs knowledge into an audience that these characters could cross over – just like we did when Tony Stark showed up at the end of The Incredible Hulk.
4. Don’t just do it because The Avengers made a lot of money.
Because that’s what this news feels like. DC and WB should want to make this movie because it would be awesome, not just to balance out cheque books. Get someone in with a passion for this, get someone who can understand the characters and bring out something in them no one knew existed, get in someone who can raise the bar of this movie just as Joss Whedon had done for Avengers. Get in… get in…
5. Get in Christopher Nolan.
Of all the people walking this earth today, no man alive and well has done more for the Batman character than Christopher Nolan. After 1997, we all thought that Bats was dead and buried, but Nolan swooped in like the Batman to Joel Schumacher’s Joker and revived the series. He impressed so much (and made so much money) that he was brought on to help out with the Superman re-launch. If they trust him enough with their two huge money making franchises, surely they’d have the faith to put him in charge of this too. Plus, with Nolan comes David S. Goyer and Wally Pfister, and that team has a license to print money. If there was one man who could plan this out sensibly, it would be Nolan.
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So in a nutshell, that’s what I think DC and Warner Bros. need to do in order for the Justice League movie to not only succeed, but compete against The Avengers. When you lay down all the chips, Marvel did everything right in their execution of their super hero team up, will DC learn from their success or just dive in at the deep end without so much as a creative thought?
Some could argue that DC shouldn’t just copy what Marvel did and do it their own way. But my counter-argument would be why fix what isn’t broken? If DC makes a Justice League movie next year with a whole new cast and crew with no lead in and without establishing anything, the movie will suffer. Sure, it would make a lot of money – but it won’t make Avengers money.
Luke Owen is a freelance copywriter working for Europe’s biggest golf holiday provider as their web content executive.
I say keep Chris Nolan away from this, including his universe. They really need to be careful with how they treat audiences. Create an entirely new universe, new set of rules and circumstance in which we can believe all these other superheroes had existed under Batman's nose.
ReplyDelete... Or just don't make it right this very moment?
Nolan went to great lengths to make the Dark Knight trilogy grounded in reality rather than superpowers (so much so that laughed at the idea of Bane when I first heard). I also think that not re-casting Bale would put the other characters at a disadvantage, because his Batman has so much history the emotional connection to him might be greater than for the other characters. I still thinking having Iron Man 2 was an oversight, and should've been saved for the gap between Avengers 1 and 2 so he doesn't end up with a 4th between Avengers 2 and 3 (or worse? Nothing at all). For the same reason, unless they made further Dark Knight films, which is doubtful, Batman would disappear between JLA 1 and 2 should there be a sequel. Although, maybe that's quite fitting for Bats.
ReplyDeleteWay off on what needs to happen. They absolutely have to recast and start over on the series; the Avengers series had scripts that were written in conjunction with one another. Trying to take a realistic Batman and put him in a world where there's an invincible alien from Kansas flying around, an intergalatic police officer, a demigod with an indestructible rope, a man that runs as fast as lightening, and the king of an underwater civilization screams horribly inconsistent. We've been conditioned to accept Batman as a tangible man who can't fight crime in perpetuity and who's villians are actually people (no Mr. Freeze, Penguin, or Two-Face that lasts longer than a short term killing spree). The point is the plots don't weave together from stand alone Dark Knight, Superman, and Green Lantern movies. In contrast, Iron Man and Incredible Hulk referenced one another. Iron Man 2 set up Thor. Thor and Captain America both had plots that were linked to each other (Red Skull looking for Asgardian tech and Loki looking to dominate Earth). Their scripts were all written at once and by the same people. It was a systematic, well thought through strategy. It was not a post-hoc decision that was made after releasing Iron Man. To do a Justice League successfully, you have to completely revamp Batman where the viewer can accept him as a part of a bigger universe in which all these larger than life characters exist. He's not a direct comparison to Iron Man, who's high tech advantage looks plausible in the Marvel Universe. Batman runs from rooftop to rooftop and can be killed, in costume, with a well placed knife. For that reason, Batman has to be redone to draw a nice balance between the over the top campy Tim Burton/Joel Schummacher series and the realism of the Nolan series. Only then will a Justice League movie be successful. Therefore, there has to be recasting and rebooting of the series, as well as rebooting Green Lantern. You can't salvage these movies and turn them into a cohesive unit; you're just asking for Warner Bros. to repeat the disaster of the Kilmer/Clooney Batmans and 6 years from now, we'll all be bitching on these blogs about how shitty Justice League is.
ReplyDeleteI think your wrong about the superman return what hurt that movie was superman having a son Brandon Roth played a good superman and was hand picked by christhopher reeves wife superman return was about how superman would adjust to a world that didn't have him for five years and how will a world adjust to him this not the fan in me speak either I don't like the new superman suit superman is not a dark person frank miller movies are at the end I can't say if I'm going to go see the man of steal
ReplyDeleteThen don't want MOS simple as that. Go watch the Christopher reeve impersonator Brandon Routh on his wooden and emo performance of Superman.
ReplyDeleteJust to address some of my points as I feel they've been lost somewhere down the line.
ReplyDeleteRE: Bale as Bats - Funnily enough, I've always felt he was the weak link in Nolan's Batman. In the grand scheme of things, I rate him as one of the worst Batmans - but that's personal taste. Having said that, he has established himself as the character and audiences recognise him. Re-casting someone and throwing them into a multiple-person movie would put the actor and the character at an immediate disadvantage they'd struggle to overcome. Look how great Ruffalo had to be to get recognition in Avengers. Imagine if every actor had to do that.
RE: The set-up. And this is more directed at Brian who seemed to agree with every point I but still make me out to be wrong :P I completely agree with your points that Marvel planned in advance and that's why Avengers worked (I actually made that point in the above article). The point I was trying to make with this post was that DC are *starting* with Justice League rather than *finishing* with it. Which means, with their plan, the entire cast will be fresh, every character will be rebooted and the whole thing will be brand new. The problem I see with that is that an audience will have to:
a) Go into a movie with a load of new actors/characters and therefore settle themselves into their performances
b) Get the back stories of each character and understand them
c) Understand each of their motives
d) Discover a new villain and then repeat points a through c
That's a big ask for a 2 hour movie.
RE: Nolan. I can't see him directing this either. But acting like a 'Godfather' to the project would benefit the project no end.
RE: The different universes. An easy solution would be to have your most established movie character (Batman) show up at the end of Man of Steel to get the ball rolling. Then have him appear at the end (or in the middle) of Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman etc. By doing this you will have subtly set audiences up that he can exist within their worlds. I've no doubt that die hard Batfans will erupt in anger that he couldn't appear in "other worlds other than the dark and gritty Gotham" but I think it is their best bet of setting this movie up correctly.
Bottom line, they need to either a) start again from fresh and reboot all of their characters or b) work with what they have. The problem with the former suggestion is that I don't think WB are patient enough to wait and plan but instead want to jump in and just make a JLA movie because Avengers made a truck load of money. And that is my problem.
1)This is very well put down coz DC's characters have got loads more potential than Marvel's, plus we've got Nolan's expertise of film-making & the amazing universe of Batman he's presently established in our minds.
ReplyDelete2) Superman will taste the same success Batman did with Nolan's supervision. Green Lantern's box office failure can be redressed if Nolan directs JLA & also innovate with Flash, Wonder Woman & Jon Jonzz.
3) Unlike Avengers, JLA should serve a purpose with a good storyline having standard depth of adventure rather than Avengers' plain eye candy action.
P.S.- Bale serves as the best Batman & should'nt be replaced.
Best solution: don't do this at all!
ReplyDeleteIt's clearly a cash grab. They aren't going to wait 5 or 6 years to properly introduce characters/stories. They are green with envy and want that Avengers type money. Therefore, they won't take the careful plan of action as Marvel did (even if they did, the "copycat" approach would be pathetic...but hey, it's Hollywood) and they will rush the hell out of it. WB is way too far behind on this. Think about it...they have to at least wait until next year to see how well Man of Steel does, THEN work on casting, script, and, ultimately production followed by a hell of a lot of marketing so people know who the cast consists of. Avengers essentially had 5 years of overlapping marketing via all the other flicks. With the whole process, Justice League wouldn't be out until summer of 2015. There obviously wouldn't be enough time to introduce movies of individual characters so this whole idea will be forced and rushed. Could it work by 2017?? Ideally. WB wants to see GREEN, regardless of their fans. Marvel, at least, kept fans in consideration (as well as the ultimate payday). Despite how well TDKR is going to do next month, they still took a disappointing loss with Green Lantern. There isn't enough time to work everything out properly. I mean come on...EVERYONE knew for years what Marvel's plan was. Why didn't WB get on the ball sooner?? Scrap this idea for now and be patient.
i actually disagree with #2. I think if youre going to be the anti-avengers, recast everything except maybe Superman since that isn't even out. You could use Superman as the one cohesive element or even completely recast. If this is a fresh launch into fresh features start with an entire new cast. That's part of the excitement for this thing is new faces in familiar roles, which is why Cavil could work if it's a huge hit.
ReplyDeleteHell, if Man of Steel hits big, use Braniac and there's your invasion/alien/sci fi part right there.
I dont think they can use Darkseid. Because at this point the Avengers threw down the stone faced intergalactic war monger with the Thanos appearance.
I think starting with the Justice League film is a great idea. It makes the most sense and if treated properly, can easily be done. Its not like we haven't had ensemble films before which use the first ten or twenty minutes to set up each character, for example the A-Team movie. It may not have been great but it successfully used that first ten or twenty minutes to set up the film well.
ReplyDeleteI personally wouldn't have Batman or Superman in this. They are DC and Warner Bros. best bet for any success or money and could easily damage or be damaged by being included in a film like this. Instead I'd just have Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash and Martian Manhunter. It would have all the characters (and new cast) on equal footing and wouldn't have two characters clearly running away with the whole film (something Avengers managed to avoid quite successfully.)
Grrr, the mytho of the mighty Nolan "saving" Batman continues.
ReplyDelete1) For a movie deemed "the worst movie ever made," [i]Batman & Robin[/i] cracked $100-million in the US box office and another $200-million or so in the international box office. Not to mention, [i]Batman Forever[/i] was the 2nd biggest hit of 1995.
2) In the wake of B&R, Batman continued to be popular not only in comics, but also animation (see [i]Batman Beyond[/i]).
3) As much as B&R sucked, it's not like another Batman film came out two or three years later that everyone agreed was good but it totally tanked.
4) Around the time of [i]Spider-Man[/i] rumors abound of a Batman reboot with another director attached, which tells me, if nothing else, if Nolan didn't do it someone else would have.
Don't get me wrong, Chris Nolan is great; but I don't see him doing a Justice League film. His movies tend to be very slow and mysterious and I don't see a League movie that way.
Well grounding the Nolan Batman universe in reality is all well and good, but we also need to understand this is the first 10 years of Batman's universe, before there were the unbelievable villains, and writing off the believability in a JLA movie is an easy fix, just show a scene similar to the sequence in Hush where Bruce and Thomas Elliot visit Metropolis and see superheroes.
ReplyDeleteAs far as getting Bale and Nolan involved, they've both said they're done with the universe so you would probably need to offer Bale a ludicrous amount of money to come back. As for Nolan, it seems to be he's always about if he feels the story is strong enough he'd come back, so I'm sure if him, Goyer, and brother Nolan could come up with a strong enough story he'd probably love to jump onboard(considering he's getting filthy money from the Begins and DK and DKR, plus soon to be Superman). Reynolds would easily be in, as will Cavill because Cavill already has a lot to prove with Superman and I can guarantee he'll shock with how good he will be.
And as for villains? What better one than Darkseid? For one, Thanos being revealed in Avengers is awesome, but anyone who knows comics knows that Thanos is a BLATANT ripoff of Darkseid, even down to the look(not the original intent of the author of course but the powers that be) so why not use him? I know most people will scream Avengers ripoff but most people will realize that Darkseid is the original, and Marvel simply ripped off the concept.
1)DC Comics has made movies with immense character backstories, emotional linkages and deep sense of judgement, so people expect more from these movies more than Marvel, therefore JLA should not be assigned to just any director but only someone whose reputed expertise has been tested and approved, like Chris Nolan.
ReplyDelete2)Although some people think Nolan should be excluded from this project coz his trilogy is "grounded in realism" (WTF?!! Batman's a plain detective, isn't he?? & his criminals include mob bosses, Joker & Two-Face, who are just realistic crime lords. Nolan's giving the true picture to these characters), let's not make the same mistake Avengers did & later end up being called 'copycats'.
3)The only way to set apart JLA's potential from Avengers will be its storyline, which if its filled with standard depth of adventure and a deep sense of character and purpose will easily crush the Avengers' punitive script and win over people's minds. However, such a storyline can be best possible only with the GENIUS of Chris Nolan.
4)Bale should not be recast 'coz he's already well established as the Batman & has had good experience with the character's backstory and operational motives. People will have a hard time adjusting with this "new rebooted Batman".
5) Also, people should not be worried about melding Nolan's realistic trilogy with the others as he's scripted Superman in 'Man of Steel' in his same tone of grit. The only thing left is to innovate with Flash, Wonder Woman, Jon Jonzz and Aquaman in the same light and to unite them finally in JLA movie. Sure, it will take time, but that's how Marvel got it done and its fullproof.
1)DC Comics has made movies with immense character backstories, emotional linkages and deep sense of judgement, so people expect more from these movies more than Marvel, therefore JLA should not be assigned to just any director but only someone whose reputed expertise has been TESTED AND APPROVED, like Chris Nolan.
ReplyDelete2)Although some people think Nolan should be excluded from this project coz his trilogy is "grounded in realism" (WTF?!! Batman's a plain detective, isn't he?? & his criminals include mob bosses, Joker & Two-Face, who are just realistic crime lords. NOLAN'S GIVING THE TRUE PICTURE to these characters), let's not make the same mistake Avengers did & later end up being called 'copycats'.
3)THE ONLY WAY to set apart JLA's potential from Avengers will be its storyline, which if its filled with standard depth of adventure and a deep sense of character and purpose will easily crush the Avengers' punitive script and win over people's minds. However, such a storyline can be best possible only with the GENIUS of Chris Nolan.
4)CHRISTIAN BALE should not be recast 'coz he's already well established as the Batman & has had good experience with the character's backstory and operational motives otherwise people will have a hard time adjusting with a "newly rebooted Batman".
5) REPLICATE NOLAN'S INNOVATION TO EACH CHARACTER- Also, people should not be worried about melding Nolan's realistic trilogy with the others as he's scripted Superman in 'Man of Steel' in his same tone of grit. The only thing left is to innovate with Flash, Wonder Woman, Jon Jonzz and Aquaman in the same light and to unite them finally in JLA movie. Sure, it will take time, but that's how Marvel got it done and its fullproof.
i think someone is jealous if marvel studios planned for the avengers they have every right to enjoy their success and besides the avengers rule any thing dc n justce league do will b just plain copying hahahaha
ReplyDeletegood luck on getting christopher nolan involved in a justice league movie, thats not his style, nor is that what he wants. ever notice how the last two batman movies there were no mentions of other heroes or even side kicks (gordon's son got more screen time than barbara herself)? he wanted that world separate from everyone else. i admit, would be awesome if he was involved (writer or director), but i just dont see him agreeing to do this
ReplyDeleteHere's a hint, and it would suck, but drop Batman. It's too soon to make a new Batman work and Bale won't come near this. Drop Batman and connect superman and latern
ReplyDeleteCasting Ryan Reynolds would make this an immediate "no watch" for me. I hate that guy.
ReplyDeleteone thing DC has to put it in it's mind is that it doesn't matter what happens to Christian Bale's character in the end of RISES
ReplyDeleteNolan created the Dark Knight like V for Vendetta, he may die but his idea, his iconic role and legendary name will never die. Someone will take the place. And it would be nice if in a Justice League movie, Batman never takes off his costume. He'd be played either by Bale if he survives or somebody else who took on the cape that noone knew Wayne was Batman.
Now, since most would say Batman is realistic. So far, Superman has a serious tone. This would make the Dark Knight go into a gear that he never expected things happening like this. In Ironman, he never fought an alien nor anything superpowered. It's all within Ironman's theme of technological enemies. But in Avengers, he fits right in and nobody questioned why he wasn't going WTF Aliens ?????
Now, if Superman takes a more serious approach and less comic'ish, Dark Knight could fit in. Hey, even if they say Bruce Wayne dies in the DKR, they could make something to make it seem just like so. But again, Bruce Wayne may die but Batman can't, since it was already implied in the beginning of Batman as told by Liam Neeson.
what i meant on the last part btw on "make it seem like so"
ReplyDeleteis that Bruce Wayne makes himself disappear to be just Batman
never being Bruce Wayne, just being Batman
They could always have Henry Cavill rotate the Earth backwards and erase all of the Nolan Dark Knight trilogy... but on a serious note, I think they'll use Justice League to fully reboot Batman.
ReplyDeleteI'm definite Chris Nolan wouldn't want any part of this ensemble...But it doesn't mean it can't be as good as the Avnegers. Now listen boys and girls. Casting should be: Batman- Chris Pine, GL- stick with Ryan Reynolds (hey you cracked critics, the film may have not made good impressions on many but story-wise it did do justice), the Flash - Bradley Cooper, Superman-Henry Cavill, Wonder Woman - Odette Yustman.... at least what they need to do know is interlace the films of GL and the upcoming Superman and reboot Batman and introduce them to assemble Justice League... Warner Bros./DC must concentrate on these 5 characters first as they should lay the groundwork for DC universe... Just my two cents
ReplyDeletehehehehe true dat~!
ReplyDeletebtw they could begin JL with Superman and the others being recruited.....
By BATMAN. this could be a new Batman with Superpowered enemies. But it
must be that this Batman must be in JL as an established character. he
recruits other supes because he saw something fell from the sky that he
needs assistance, one would be Martian Manhunter the other could be
related to the new gods/dark seid.
then some basic flashback on batsies etc etc movie closes then BATMAN
gets the movie. he starts as BATMAN not as bruce wayne. Like BURTON's
batman, we only get a flashback of who he is not a real reintroduction.
Like Del Toro's Blade, he is already out there fighting crime and gets a
peek on his past only.
its different, i know, but it is, for me, better to start JL without a Batman movie going out yet. Making it after JL would make it that Batman only gets flashbacks for his past than totally doing what Nolan did.
Also i wouldn't want a credit scene. its Marvel's trick, and it's just gonna look forced for DC. rather i'd like to see references mid scenes. Like Bruce Wayne in a Superman/Flash/WonderWoman scene. Or Flash ran a streak of blur in another movie etc etc than a post credit Marvel scene..
cheers
After Seeing the DARK KNIGHT RISES today
ReplyDeletewhat i said about BATMAN either not taking off his mask the whole JL movie or either there'd be a new one under the cape but noone knows that it isn't WAYNE or something else /wink
CAN HAPPEN with JL
there can be no reboot
before you say NO NO NO There must be a reboot
WATCH THE DAMN MOVIE first
Nolan also was able to cut and paste some really good Batman arcs to make movie one and two... and sort of 3. Not sure he can do that with a Justice League set -- none of their story arcs has been 'big enough' to be movie worthy. Not even if you claimed "Infinite Crisis" or "Darkest Night" as the arc to emulate.
ReplyDelete