Robert Kojder chats with The Sun Never Sets director Joe Swanberg and stars Jake Johnson & Cory Michael Smith…
A pillar of the Chicago film scene, Joe Swanberg is a joy to have back making movies again after a Netflix series and a creative hiatus. Having worked as a travel coordinator for the Chicago International Film Festival and made several low-budget Midwestern independent features (at one point, seven in one year) while often acting in them, pioneering a subgenre dubbed mumblecore (which essentially sees actors performing off-the-cuff with little to no script), and producing small films by the next generation, the name carries weight here in Chicago. With his works typically functioning as astutely observed, insightful, often too emotionally raw-for-comfort relationship dramas, it is also delightful that he is back operating in that wheelhouse for The Sun Never Sets, which is about a messy love triangle that sprawls into a love rectangle, set in Alaska.
Joe Swanberg has reteamed with reliable collaborator Jake Johnson (fan favorite Drinking Buddies in which he started opposite Olivia Wilde and Anna Kendrick, to Digging for Fire and the more recent Win It All), while reeling in new talent interested in working together. This ranges from Dakota Fanning in the lead as Wendy, a woman at a crossroads with her future, surrounded by friends starting families and an older boyfriend Jack (Johnson) perhaps albeit too confidently insisting a separation for the summer so that she can live life and explore whatever else may be out there to see if this relationship – where there will be no more children (she has accepted and grown fond of his daughters from a previous marriage) and someone disinterested in boating and camping – is what she truly wants. He tells a friend over Zoom that he isn’t worried, since everyone in Alaska is awkward and smells like salmon. In walks former ex-flame Chuck (Cory Michael Smith, another new welcome into this filmmaking fold), reformed from his bad-boy ways and prepared to give Wendy a mature relationship this time.
What ensues is a beautifully raw look at indecision in relationships and love, and how these people, with the best intentions, scramble each other’s brains, unsure of what they want. The premise itself is gold, something so believably stupid you can’t help but wait to see how it bites Jack in the ass while also hoping he doesn’t lose someone he clearly loves. Then again, there is also the element that both of these men are occasionally toxic and, in Jack’s case, suddenly has no problem putting in the effort to plan a camping trip if it means Wendy will choose him. As for Chuck, the chemistry is certainly there, and it could be seen as a more practical relationship for the future, but he, too, has no interest in being everything Wendy wants in a partner. That itself is one of the film’s fascinating throughlines, posing the question of whether there even is such a thing as a perfect partner who meets every need and want as someone’s other half in a relationship.
Nevertheless, these three drive each other crazy, bordering on manipulative, and drive us mad in the process, albeit entertainingly so and entirely invested. It’s also less about who Wendy will choose and more about hoping she discovers who she wants to be as the next phase of her life approaches quickly.
Given the richness and truthfulness found in the characters and performances, it was a pleasure to speak to director Joe Swanberg and stars Jake Johnson and Cory Michael Smith about finding those emotional truths and the unique collaborative process. Baseball also amusingly factors into a bar trivia sequence, so naturally, I couldn’t help but bring that up (Jake Johnson was even wearing a Chicago Cubs hat on the call). Upfront, I will mention that a power outage in my home cut this interview short during the final answer, but it was still a lively and enlightening conversation. Enjoy the interview below…
Nice to meet you all. The first question is a baseball one, even though you’re wearing a Cubs hat, Jake.
Jake Johnson: I see the White Sox pennant behind you, Robert, we’re rivals!
[Everyone laughs]
JJ: Terrible start for us!
We are! I love the bar trivia scene and that question about baseball. How did that get into the movie? I’m assuming it was you improvising, Jake.
JJ: No, actually. Joe, how did we choose baseball?
Joe Swanberg: It was Mike Brune, our AD, who plays the trivia host and who’s also a big baseball head. Mike came up with those questions himself. It’s perfect, honestly; there was no faster or more efficient way to tell the difference between these two characters, and it’s been a real pleasure to watch the movie at film festivals because when he goes, “Our next question is about baseball,” and Chuck goes, “Fuck”, it gets a huge laugh every single time and the audience goes, “Oh, okay, got it. He’s toast right now.”
Joe, obviously you’re familiar with Jake Johnson, but can you talk about what it’s like to bring new actors into the collaborative fold and get everyone on the same wavelength?
JS: When Cory and I first talked, we dove right into a two-hour conversation off the bat. I love making movies. I occasionally act myself. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for that job, and working with new people is part of what keeps this career interesting and exciting. So, it was fun to come in and say we’re gonna be playing around in an environment that Jake and I know very well. That doesn’t mean that there’s a fixed way we do things. There’s no formula to this. You’re not just jumping into the Joe and Jake show, but there’s a huge amount of space for you to come in and influence this process, affect the character, and even change the script or bring yourself in a big way.
So I think the key to it was making sure we felt like we were making the same movie, and I just felt right away from Cory that he was willing to share his personal stuff. I felt the same way. We connected just as humans first and talked through some of the character stuff. What do you think, Cory? Was it the Jake and Joe show, or did you feel like you were able to be a player here?
Cory Michael Smith: I felt really welcome. In my first conversation with Joe, I was really upfront with him and Jake. I said I’ve never worked like this, and I do have a little bit of anxiety and trepidation about this, but also, it is part of what’s exciting. I’ve loved Joe’s films. I’ve loved Jake in them. I re-watched them a lot to see what Jake was doing and what some of his co-stars were doing that worked really well. Some things that I wanted to avoid, that I think actors who aren’t used to working in improv can sometimes fall into. Then it was just trusting the process.
Joe loves making movies and has a lot of experience. His sets are one of the calmest environments I’ve ever worked in. There was a real tone of relaxation and freedom. It was actually one of the more comfortable environments I’ve worked in, despite there not being many presumed boundaries or guidelines here. Jake was really great ahead of time. We had a FaceTime, and he basically said, “You’re a good actor. You know how to do this.”
You are, too.
JJ: Oh, he’s great.
CMS: It was very helpful that there wasn’t… “Okay, here are the top five things you need to be thinking about.” Dakota’s an excellent actress. Jake is a great actor. It’s trusting the people you’re on set with and knowing what the story is.
I agree. You are both excellent in these roles as complicated, messy characters. Can you talk about the process of finding the emotional truths of those characters? This is a movie where everything feels real and honest.
JJ: Cory, you wanna go first? I’ll go second.
CMS: Yeah. I’ll say, when I had a conversation with Joe, unfortunately, a lot of the things my character struggles with aren’t unfamiliar to me; I have spent years in therapy working against them. It was just, how do I pretend like I’ve never gone to therapy for any of these issues- my worst instincts. Watching this movie is personally a little difficult because I see behaviors on screen that feel a little too relatable to my past, and it makes me absolutely cringe and feel pretty awful. Joe especially has experienced this in talkbacks where I get really wound, man, kind of publicly humiliated.
The emotional truth, I think I was right for this role because what I presented to Joe in the first conversation was, “I understand some of this stuff, and it feels very real to me and the ugliness I’m comfortable with.” Then Dakota is such an easy person to act with. She’s very present. She has a very thin veil in this film. It’s why her work is so spectacularly beautiful and why we ride with her this whole movie. It was also just responding to this amazing actress in real time, and what happened felt very real.
JJ: For me, well, first of all, in terms of the actors coming in, Cory and Dakota… when I first did Drinking Buddies with Joe, I felt very similar to Cory in that it felt so different and so crazy, and I couldn’t believe this is how you could actually make a movie. What I’ve now found 15 years later, after being on a bunch of different sets, is that it’s actually not that different. Joe has a very clear vision. He knows exactly what he wants. The only thing you can’t do as an actor, which we all love to do, is obsess over your lines and have anxiety that you’re gonna forget them, so you read the script a million times in the nine days before. You’re just not allowed to do that. But you’re still obsessing over the story, the scene, and what’s happening. So when you show up, it just forces you to be present.
When Joe and I are talking about people, they just have to be very good at acting. So I think one of the things where, Cory, when you were saying to stay away from these pitfalls, is sometimes you can feel people in the scene thinking about their next line and what they’re going to say. That’s wrong. But if you’re a real actor and you’re paying attention to what’s really happening, as you will in any other movie you’re in, you’re gonna do great in this one. If you’re bad in any other movie you’re in, you’re gonna be bad in this one too. So there are certain people who are not gonna ask to be in it because you need a good script and a good editor to save you, because in between action and cut, you can’t do a scene. But if you get three close-ups and the camera zooms in, they could make you look like a fine actor, and you’re handsome enough to pull it off, but you’re dogshit, brother.
In Joe’s world, you need to be able to execute his idea. There are gonna be times like this, and I brought this one up before, but when Dakota and I had that big fight outside, and we were in the parking lot, and the murals behind us- part of the Joe’s world- it was very loud. We were running out of time, and we had to hit it the way that Joe wanted it done.
[Unfortunately, a power outage in my home disconnected the call, although I was running out of time to ask another question anyway. Nevertheless, they had a little bit of fun with the remaining 30 or so seconds]
JS: Do you want me to play Robert, Jake?
JJ: Yes, please. Next question.
JS: Okay, great. Thank you all very much for coming.
[As always, I would have thanked them for their time and thoughtful answers. The three of them clearly have camaraderie even away from a movie set.]
Many thanks to Joe Swanberg, Jake Johnson & Cory Michael Smith for taking the time for this interview.
Robert Kojder
